October 27

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

Nothing soothes me more after a long and maddening course of pianoforte recitals than to sit and have my teeth drilled. ~  George Bernard Shaw

I remember 2014 like it was just 6 years ago. It was the one and only time we personally attended “Prairie Home Companion” at the Fitzgerald Theater. I didn’t know that, of course, without looking back in the blog. A personal diary nonpareil . . .

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, March 2014

[Acting out Piano Man . . . ]

[And they sit at the bar . . . ]

[and put bread in my jar . . . ]

CCW, March 2014

CCW, March 2014

CCW, March 2014

Jamie & Craig Sandberg @ SAWA, March 2014

Julie & Matt Velline @ SAWA, March 2014

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, March 2014

Salty Dogs @ CCW, March 2014

CCW, March 14 (The Big Hair Boys)

Skilly & Duff w/ Chuck Wencl @ Carlson Music Center, March 2014

Mel Lamar Trio w/ Mary Lou Thunselle @ SAWA, March 2014

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, April 2014 (and the new acoustic ceiling)

Components @ SAWA, April 2014

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, April 2014

Salty Dogs @ CCW, April 2014

[I think I put out a caption contest on this one . . . ]

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, May 2014 (w/ a long ago neighbor in Grand Rapids)

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, May 2014

[This is the full monty . . . ]

[Of the Piano Man scenario . . . ]

[And they sit at the bar . . . ]

[and put bread in my jar . . . ]

BAT @ SAWA, May 2014

Katie Ray @ CCW, May 2014

Kevin Klimek @ SAWA, May 2014

Locally, “the Day the Music Died” . . .

Go to alexandriacardinals.blog and type “Bruce Kelly” in the search block . . .

Annie O’Flynn @ CCW, June 2014

Josie Nelson @ CCW, June 2014

To My Knowledge, Never Met Josie . . .

I love Wagner, but the music I prefer is that of a cat hung up by its tail outside a window and trying to stick to the panes of glass with its claws. ~  Charles-Pierre Baudelaire

Up Next: Wrapping up 2014?

October 27

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

I think John would have liked Free As A Bird. In fact, I hope somebody does this to all my crap demos when I’m dead, making them into hit songs. ~  George Harrison

All humans are stupid, but the smarter ones at least have a handle on their own ignorance. ~ John Cleese

Pete Seeger Died @ Age 94, January 2014

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, February 2014

CCW, February 2014

Djangleville (or Salty Dogs) @ SAWA, February 2014

Harper’s Chord @ CCW, February 2014

[Paul Drinkwine . . . ]

[Roger Fink . . . ]

[Jill Moore . . . ]

[BTW, “Harper’s Chord” was named for Jill’s daughter, Harper . . . ]

[Paul w/ fans . . . ]

[Well, it was a good day for photos, and we were all on a roll . . . ]

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, February 2014

Salty Dogs (or Djangleville) @ SAWA, February 2014

[Did you notice the ole name switcheroo?]

Vellines @ SAWA, February 2014

Anthony Miltich & Debi Kilde @ CCW, March 2014

Eleanor Rigby and Anna . . .

I stole everything I ever heard, but mostly I stole from the horns. ~  Ella Fitzgerald

Up Next: Movin’ on in 2014 . . .

October 27

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

Dogs smoke in France. ~ Ozzy Osbourne

This should wrap up 2013, which as I recall occurred seven years ago. That leaves just the years from 2104 to 2020 to go. Which begs the question, what the hell have I gotten myself into this time?

Salty Dogs @ CCW, September 2013

SAWA, September 2013

Adam Astrup, Kirby Karpan, and Paul Meland @ SAWA, October 2013

Harper’s Chord @ SAWA, October 2013

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, October 2013

Patchouli @ CCW, October 2013

SAWA, October 2013

Annie O’Flynn @ CCW, November 2013

Anthony Miltich & Debi Kilde @ CCW, November 2013

Bruce Kelly @ CCW, November 2013

David Francey @ Carlson Music Center, November 2013

Josie Nelson @ CCW, November 2013

Lisa Lynn & fans @ SAWA, November 2013

High School Carolers @ Legacy of the Lakes (nee Maritime) Museum, December 2013

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, December 2013

SAWA (starring Vic Rima), December 2013

Goo goo g’joob . . .

In order to compose, all you need to do is remember a tune that nobody else has thought of. ~ Robert Schumann

Up Next: 2014, a brand new year . . .

October 27

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

It’s easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument will play itself. ~ Johann Sebastian Bach

I started this one @ 3:30 a.m. and am finding it difficult to come up with any snappy repartee . . .

Matt Harlan, Charlie Roth & Brian Hudson @ Legacy of the Lakes Gardens, July 2013

Patchouli @ CCW, July 2013

Skilly & Duff @ CCW, July 2013

Uncle Willie’s Gut Bucket Blues Band @ CCW, July 2013

[Uncle Willie & fan . . . ]

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, August 2013

Arlyn Swenson @ Courthouse Lawn, August 2013

CCW, August 2013 (the Super with lots of Trumms)

Josie Nelson @ CCW, August 2013

Pistol Whippin Party Penguins @ Legacy of the Lakes Gardens, August 2013

Salty Dogs @ CCW, August 2013

Sami Steidl @ Courthouse Lawn, August 2013

CCW, September 2013 (parade of the Lucy look-alikes) . . .

Components w/ Sami Steidl (and Al Lieffort cameo) @ SAWA, September 2013

Harper’s Chord @ CCW, September 2013

[At the table, awaiting their next shift . . . ]

Skilly & Duff w/ Abby Williams @ Bennigan’s, September 2013

Josie Nelson @ CCW, September 2013

Mel Lamar Trio @ CCW, September 2013

[With Mary Lou Thunselle . . . ]

[Accidental artsy . . . ]

Broke up when I was on Okinawa (I do not consider myself responsible) . . .

Rock ‘n’ roll will never die. There’ll always be some arrogant little brat who wants to make music with a guitar. ~ Dave Edmunds

Up Next: Part 7 appears likely . . . (And much belatedly, if you desire to see previous posts go to the bottom of this page (right above “leave a reply”) and on the left side, in small, pale print, is the title of the previous post. Click there to go to that previous post. At that post there will be titles of both the previous and proceeding (on the right side bottom) posts, so you can arrow yourself around.)

October 25

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means ‘put down’. ~ Bob Newhart

Continuing with the banner year of 2013 . . .

Patchouli @ CCW, May 2013

SAWA, May 2013

Skilly & Duff w/ actor fan @ CCW, May 2013

Her eyes they shown like diamonds . . .

I thought her the queen of the land . . .

And her hair, it hung over her shoulder . . .

Tied up with a black velvet band . . .

Black Velvet Band

CCW, June 2013

CCW, June 2013 (with Alia (nee) Kopischke, former Cardinal hockey player and operating the counter above, and her parents also work/worked for the winery . . . )

CCW, June 2013

CCW, June 2013

Tuesday Night Club w/ Mary Lou Thunselle & Al Lieffort @ SAWA, June 2013

Harper’s Chord @ CCW, June 2013

Josie Nelson @ CCW, June 2013

Mikko Cowdery @ CCW, June 2013

Salty Dogs @ Bug-A-Boo Bay, June 2013

Tucker’d Out @ CCW, June 2013

[And photographed by Mikko . . . ]

Uncle Willie’s Gut Bucket Blues Band @ CCW, June 2013

Bruce Kelly @ CCW, July 2013

CCW, July 2013

Djangleville w/ a fan @ CCW, July 2013

[With out fan . . . ]

Josie Nelson & fans @ CCW, July 2013

Kelley Hunt @ Legacy of the Lakes Gardens, July 2013

Imagine

Music makes one feel so romantic – at least it always gets on one’s nerves – which is the same thing nowadays. ~ Oscar Wilde

Up Next: Still working on 2013 . . .

October 25

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

Andrew Lloyd Webber’s music is everywhere, but so is AIDS. ~  Malcolm Williamson

The year is now 2013. I must have been taking this cub reporter stuff pretty seriously by then. Based on the volume (a financial planner’s guide to economic success), I will have to split the year up into 4 separate posts. There was one day sometime in this era when the Super and I took in FIVE concerts in a 24-hour period. And we weren’t even teenagers . . .

Tucker’d Out @ CCW, January 2013

[Joined by Annie O’Flynn . . . ]

Harper’s Chord @ SAWA, February 2013

Lisa Lynn protege @ SAWA, February 2013

Salty Dogs @ CCW, February 2013

Harper’s Chord @ CCW, March 2013

Skilly & Duff @ Andria Theater, March 2013

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, April 2013

Patchouli @ SAWA, April 2013

Salty Dogs @ CCW, April 2013

’57 Chevy @ Courthouse Lawn (King Louie Morena, w/ guests Kevin Klimek (guitar) & Bob Wilken (keyboards)), May 2013

[And Jim Faber (bass), Chuck Wencl (saxophone) & Paul Strand (drums) . . . ]

Anthony Miltich & Anna Miltich-Krenik @ CCW, May 2013

Anthony Miltich @ CCW, May 2013

Central Lakes Symphony Orchestra @ CCW, May 2013

Dan Mahar @ SAWA, May 2013

Djangleville @ SAWA, May 2013

Harper’s Chord @ CCW, May 2013

Never Played Alex

I never had much interest in the piano until I realized that every time I played, a girl would appear on the piano bench to my left and another to my right. ~ Duke Ellington

Up Next: This seems like a good place to end this portion of 2013 . . .

October 24

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

I’ve been imitated so well I’ve heard people copy my mistakes. ~  Jimi Hendrix

Moving on to Part 3, the finer points of 2012. A certain trendline is becoming apparent that music is often enjoyed with fine dining and fine wines. Not that we would notice . . .

Salty Dogs (Annie O’Flynn, Bruce Kelly, Erik Schultz & Tom Mulder) @ CCW, January 2012

Bruce Kelly @ CCW, February 2012

Uncle Willie’s Gut Bucket Blues Band (Bill Riggs, Terry Kennedy, Al Lieffort & Erik Schultz) @ SAWA, February 2012

Mikko Cowdery @ CCW, February 2012

Skilly & Duff, w/ fans!! @ CCW, April 2012

Patchouli @ CCW, May 2012

[Bruce’s art was used as CCW bottle labels . . . ]

Skilly & Duff @ Jeanne’s garage, May 2012

Annie O’Flynn @ CCW, June 2012

Enterprise (Kevin Klimek & Jim Faber) @ SAWA, June 2012

Salty Dogs @ Bug-A-Boo Bay, June 2012

Salty Dogs @ CCW, June 2012

Skilly & Duff @ CCW, June 2012

Matt Velline @ CCW, July 2012

Matt Velline @ Courthouse Lawn, July 2012

Mel Lamar Trio (Bill Riggs (trumpet), Mel’s son (bass), Bill Engebretson (drums), Mel (guitar), Adam Astrup (guitar)) @ Courthouse Lawn, July 2012

Skilly & Duff @ Courthouse Lawn, July 2012

Sami Steidl & Bruce Kelly @ Douglas County Fairgrounds, August 2012

[Bruce’s schtick was to whisper dumb jokes to Sami to crack her up during the performance . . . ]

Josie Nelson @ CCW, August 2012

Julie & Matt Velline @ CCW, August 2012

Kelley Hunt @ Legacy of the Lakes Gardens, August 2012

Salty Dogs @ Bug-A-Boo Bay, August 2012

Djangleville @ Legacy of the Lakes Gardens, August 2012

CCW, September 2012 (well, it required dance music . . . )

[Ibid.]

Funky Gumbo Trio w/ friends @ SAWA, September 2012

Mike Gill of Funky Gumbo Trio w/ a fan @ SAWA, September 2012

Patchouli @ CCW, September 2012

SAWA, September 2012

Skilly & Duff @ CCW, September 2012

Tucker’d Out (Ryan Hogue, John & Lynn Trelstad) @ CCW, September 2012

Djangleville @ SAWA, October 2012

Harper’s Chord (Roger Fink, Jill Moore & Paul Drinkwine) @ SAWA, October 2012

Lisa Lynn @ SAWA, October 2012

Patchouli @ CCW, October 2012

Paul Meland & Adam Astrup @ SAWA, October 2012

Reverend Raven & the Chain Smoking Altar Boys @ Phoenix Event Center, October 2012

SAWA, October 2012

Athletic Directors @ SAWA, October 2012

SAWA, October 2012

SAWA, October 2012

Anthony Miltich & fan @ CCW, December 2012

Hairdo Trendsetters

Life can’t be all bad when for ten dollars you can buy all the Beethoven sonatas and listen to them for ten years. ~  William F. Buckley, Jr.

Up Next: Part 4 . . .

October 24

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules, often with the assistance of unsuspecting musicians. ~  Frank Zappa

Part 2 is all about 2011, unabridged. I should note (so I will) that I did not include any large musician clusters (i,e., Central Lakes Symphony Orchestra; AAHS orchestra, band, and choirs) because that would offer too many opportunities for libel suits . . .

CCW, January 2011

Djangleville & fan @ SAWA, undated but likely of this era . . .

Funky Gumbo Trio (Luke Skrove (trumpet), Mike Gill (saxophone, vocals), Craig Sandberg (bass, vocals), Spencer Christensen (guitar) & Bill Engebretsen (drums, leader of the pack) @ SAWA, February 2011

Salty Dogs @ CCW, February 2011

SAWA (Vic Rima), April 2011

Tommy & Matt Velline @ CCW, April 2011

CCW, May 2011

Matt Velline & fans @ CCW, May 2011

Mikko Cowdery @ CCW, May 2011

Sami Steidl Graduation, June 2011

Patchouli (Julie Patchouli & Bruce Hecksel), July 2011

Patchouli @ City Park, July 2011

Patchouli @ CCW, July 2011

SAWA, July 2011

Spencer Christensen & Sami Steidl @ City Park, July 2011

Terry Kennedy & Al Lieffort @ City Park, July 2011

CCW, July 2011

CCW, August 2011

Christine Rosholt @ SAWA, August 2011

Hotdishes (Dedra Zweig, Mary Lou Thunselle, Miriam Thornquist & Stephanie Osterberg) @ Phoenix Event Center, August 2011

Patchouli @ CCW, August 2011

Skilly & Duff, and fans @ CCW, August 2011

Tommy & Matt Velline @ CCW, August 2011

Djangleville (Erik Schultz, Bill Riggs & Tom Mulder) @ SAWA, September 2011

Red Willow Arts Coalition @ Big Ole Park, September 2011

Skilly & Duff @ CCW, September 2011

Jeff James @ CCW, October 2011

Annie O’Flynn, Al Lieffort, Bruce Kelly, Patty Kakac & Terry Kennedy @ The Pines, November 2011

Salty Dogs @ CCW, November 2011

High School Carolers @ CCW, December 2011

Djangleville @ SAWA, December 2011

Matt Velline @ CCW, December 2011

Tommy & Matt Velline @ CCW, December 2011

Allegedly from England

A gentleman is someone who can play the accordion, but doesn’t. ~  Tom Waits

Up Next: Part 3 (2012)

October 24

* In the greater Alexandria, Minnesota, standard metropolitan statistical area.

Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. ~  Steve Martin

The Super and I are rapidly approaching our 20th year of retirement. In the COVID induced absence of travel and live music, I thought it time for a retrospective. Otherwise I’d just be wandering aimlessly around the house (to the Super’s chagrin). To the best of my knowledge, I (or my camera) took all of the photos contained here, except for the first two. My first music memories from the early 2000’s are of concerts by Leo Kottke (2, as I recall) and Leon Redbone at the Andria Theater. This whole adventure will take multiple posts because, as many have noted, I’ve taken multiple photos over the years (2013 alone may require three separate posts). And if you’re interested in what any of these folks actually sound like, a YouTube search will reveal several videos posted by ‘tomruth1933’ . . .

Leo Kottke

Leon Redbone

The Music Venues

Alexandria Area High School Performing Arts Center (AAHS)
Alexandria City Park
Alexandria Methodist Church
Andria Theater
Arrowwood Resort & Conference Center
Ashby City Park
Bennigan’s
Big Ole Park Broadway Ballroom
Bug-A-Boo Bay
Carlos Creek Winery (CCW)
Carlson Music Center
Central Square Cultural and Civic Center (Glenwood)
Chandler Field hangar
Copper Trail Brewing Co.
Discovery Middle School
Douglas County Couthouse Lawn
Douglas County Fairgrounds
Evansville Arts Canter
Gathered Oaks
Interlachen Inn
Jamie Sandberg’s
Jeanne Johnson’s garage
Jordie’s Trailside Cafe (Bowlus)
Legacy of the Lakes Gardens
Lure Lakebar
Phoenix Event Center
Sixth Avenue Wine & Ale (SAWA)
The Garden Bar on 6th
The Peak Supper Club (Clitherall)
The Pines
Theatre L’Homme Dieu (TLHD)

The Early Years

Carlos Creek Winery (CCW) fans, September 2002

Dennis Murphy (w/ fan) @ CCW, October 2005

Kevin Klimek & Dennis Murphy @ CCW, September 2006

Skilly (Bruce Kelly) & Duff (Mikko Cowdery) @ Big Ole Park, May 2007

Dennis Murphy @ CCW, October 2007

Djangleville (Erik Schultz, Al Lieffort & Tom Mulder) @ CCW, November 2007

Skilly & Duff (Bruce Kelly, Annie O’Flynn & Mikko Cowdery) w/ our grandson Tom @ CCW, July 2008

Skilly & Duff (Sami Steidl, Annie O’Flynn, Bruce Kelly & Mikko Cowdery) @ CCW, September 2008

Emergency Stop (Terry Kennedy & Al Lieffort) @ Sixth Avenue Wine & Ale (SAWA), November 2008

CCW, January 2009

SAWA, April 2009

Doc’s All Stars @ Chandler Field (hosted by Jerry VanKempen), June 2009

Uncle Willie’s Gut Bucket Blues Band (Al Lieffort, Bruce Kelly & Erik Schultz) @ Bug-A-Boo Bay, July 2009 (Editor’s note: These guys were also in Djangleville, Salty Dogs, among others over the years. I will no doubt guess wrong on the group name at a particular time.)

Al Lieffort, Bruce Kelly & Erik Schultz @ CCW, July 2009 (The story line: My friend, Bob Gilbert, from D.C. days, came up from his retirement home in Arizona. Whoever was scheduled to perform that day couldn’t make it. Word must have gone out on the local wire about the situation because musicians just started showing up. There wasn’t much of a crowd because no one knew they would all be performing. Bob was astonished how good they were (they were all on their A-games) and there was hardly any audience.)

Tom Mulder & Annie O’Flynn joined in . . .

Same group @ Bug-A-Boo Bay, July 2009

SAWA, August 2009

Skilly & Duff @ Douglas County Fairgrounds, August 2009

Skilly & Duff (w/ Terry Kennedy in the middle) @ Douglas County Fairgrounds, August 2009

Dan Mahar & Halloween fan @ SAWA, October 2009

SAWA, October 2009

Kevin Klimek @ SAWA, December 2009

Skilly & Duff @ CCW, December 2009

Christine Rosholt @ SAWA, December 2009

Terry Kennedy, Spencer Christensen & Al Lieffort @ Arrowwood, February 2010

Rusty Rolandson @ CCW, February 2010

Skilly & Duff w/ Sami Steidl @ Andria Theater, April 2010

Bruce Kelly @ CCW, June 2010

Christine Rosholt (w/ Jay Johnson on keyboard) @ SAWA, June 2010

Skilly & Duff w/ Sami Steidl @ City Park, July 2010

Terry Kennedy, Sami Steidl & Al Lieffort @ City Park, July 2010

SAWA cellar for a tornado watch (one of two over the years), July 2010

Mel Lamar & Erik Schultz @ CCW, September 2010

CCW, September 2010

Julie & Matt Velline @ CCW, November 2010

Unknown Group

I don’t deserve a Songwriters Hall of Fame Award. But fifteen years ago, I had a brain operation and I didn’t deserve that, either. So I’ll keep it. ~ Quincy Jones

Up Next: Likely Part 2 of music (I will get back to Japan 1983, it just requires a lot of research) . . .

October 20

People don’t notice whether it’s winter or summer when they’re happy. ~ Anton Checkov

This is the first of what may be three such wintry events this week. For your dining and dancing pleasure, therefore, I have included Ole Slushball public service announcements in days of yore . . .

It is the life of the crystal, the architect of the flake, the fire of the frost, the soul of the sunbeam. This crisp winter air is full of it. ~ John Burroughs

And some places you been before are so great that you don’t ever mind going back. Some places you been before you don’t ever want to go back, you know, like Montreal in the Winter. ~ Morgan Freeman

We cannot stop the winter or the summer from coming. We cannot stop the spring or the fall or make them other than they are. They are gifts from the universe that we cannot refuse. But we can choose what we will contribute to life when each arrives. ~ Gary Zukav

I love the scents of winter! For me, it’s all about the feeling you get when you smell pumpkin spice, cinnamon, nutmeg, gingerbread and spruce. ~ Taylor Swift

I prefer winter and fall, when you feel the bone structure of the landscape. Something waits beneath it; the whole story doesn’t show. ~ Andrew Wyeth

I think bare legs in winter are idiotic. Unless your naked pins are toned, tanned and veinless, it’s best to cover up. There is nothing more elegant in winter than dark tights worn with matching knee-length boots and a belted trench coat. ~ Joan Collins

Songs that aren’t even remotely connected to Christmas are now officially canonized Christmas tunes. ‘Frosty the Snowman,’ ‘Jingle Bells’ and ‘Winter Wonderland’ never mention anything religious but are still notches in Christmas’ belt of musical dominance. ~ Matisyahu

I enjoy hiking and skiing, like most Norwegians. In winter, there will be snow for months on end. In the summer, there are the long evenings to enjoy. ~ Magnus Carlsen

I spent two years at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis, and then some New York types saw me there as Benvolio in ‘Romeo and Juliet.’ They sent me some enticing letters – about why didn’t I come to New York? – and since it was well below zero that winter in Minneapolis, it didn’t take much to get me to leave. ~ Peter MacNicol

In Minneapolis, the overhead sky walks protect pedestrians from the winter cold and snow. ~ Bill Dedman

Winter lies too long in country towns; hangs on until it is stale and shabby, old and sullen. ~ Willa Cather

Never take a job where winter winds can blow up your pants. ~ Geraldo Rivera

From my point of view, this is the best time of the year. I don’t love heat. I’m a winter guy. ~ Alexander Lukashenko

The best thing about a British winter is the cold weather, real fires, frosty mornings. I love living somewhere that has proper seasons. ~ Jane Fallon

All sounds are sharper in winter; the air transmits better. ~ John Burroughs

I once bought a winter jacket on one of my travels abroad – definitely an extravagant purchase because I hardly have any use for it, since I live in Mumbai! ~ Asin

I need a long, cold winter. ~ John Rzeznik

I hear from my Inuit and Yupik relatives up north that everything has changed. It’s so hot; there is not enough winter. Animals are confused. Ice is melting. ~ Joy Harjo

The winter’s a little bit daunting in Montana. ~ Phil Jackson

I’m an actress that’s game for anything. I would love to do a movie like ‘Winter’s Bone.’ ~ Eiza Gonzalez

The problem with winter sports is that – follow me closely here – they generally take place in winter. ~ Dave Barry

I got a bronze medal and I can’t complain about that, the only African-American to get a medal in the Winter Olympics. ~ Debi Thomas

[And then there’s Big Ole . . . ]

I had slumps that lasted into the winter. ~ Bob Uecker

I’m telling you, until I shaved my head, I never realized how much heat is lost through the top of the head. I walk out in winter and it feels like I have an ice pack on my head. Unbelievable. ~ Bryan Cranston

Up Next: Japan 1983 (Part 6), or something else . . .